Hello everyone:
I am surprised at the amount of the book we covered in class the other day - we actually took a good sampling of many different themes and ideas from the book as a whole. I really enjoyed talking about the *crazy* Appendix about the Bene Gesserit, where all of our comments about the veracity/falsehood of the story as presented were kind of unraveled. There were several people in the class who felt the book was more of a historical/academic document (myself included), and people who felt it was more of a mythical-ized version of the truth, but then we talked about who the implied author actually might be. I mean, pretty much all of our notions fell apart when we spoke of parts like Dr. Yueh's happenstance confession of his crimes, both aloud and internally (which we as the readers could somehow hear) to Paul's thoughts and Jessica's thoughts at the same time. This odd sort of dynamic was kind of flopping about without direction in the discussion, and then we read the whole Appendix. And we got to the part about the higher plans being fulfilled, at which point several people either looked REALLY introspective, or made some sort of verbal acknowledgment of the sudden possibilities made by considering this statement - not things that usually happen in a 2-hour long book discussion near the end. Certainly, I was surprised by this, even though I have read the book a few times - somehow this seemingly little (but actually REALLY IMPORTANT) things slipped past me.
Overall, I think its a great book, one of my favorites; even more so having discussed it with 20 other people.
Saturday, February 16, 2008
Friday, February 15, 2008
Dune: Post-class Reaction
I found our cyclical discussion in class very interesting. The discussion helped me understand the book a little more, even though it did raise more questions. It was also helpful to discuss the author’s intentions and style of writing. The discussion of concepts like fate, predestination and free will is always one that constantly folds in on itself. And we found that when discussing Paul, whenever someone made a point it could have been taken a number of ways. And more that once whenever the Professor asked so does that mean that Paul was in control of his fate, Paul was controlled by others or was his destiny set, I found myself pressed for an answer, because it is hard to give a straight answer without more evidence, either way it would just be an opinion. And what the Professor pointed out in the 3rd appendix (the part where it says the Bene Gesserits were part of a grander scheme of things) further muddles the question of who was in control of Paul’s fate, because it makes it seem like there is something so much larger going on.
Reflection, Class 5
So, what to say about Dune? Well, I wouldn't want to live there, that much is certain.
But to be serious, I thought our discussion of who Paul really wanted to be, duke or Muad'Dib very interesting. I find myself agreeing with those who argue that Muad'Dib was something he stepped into for expediency and the Duke was something he was, or at least was born to be and thus is. Leto was a huge figure in Paul's life, as evidenced by their relationship and the shrine Paul erected for his father's skull. I think being the Duke helps Paul to honor his father. Of course, being the Duke also helps him connect to the Emperor and thus make himself non-writeoff-able. They have to deal with him on reasonable terms because he is the Duke, not just some tribal Prophet. In the old civilization-savage conflict, they have to deal with him on a civilized level.
I also liked our discussion on who the implied author and reader were. I still think it's someone outside of the "Arrakis Affair" that the implied reader is, which I think we all agreed on, but there is something to the idea that Dune is a compiled history of the issue, as Tim I think said, it is as if Irulan wrote all this stuff and someone just put it all together with her quotes to tie it together, adding the appendixes for some context. Or it's all silly to be even wondering and Herbert was just trying to be like Tolkien but didn't quite get there because he didn't invent, what was it, three new languages. Nice try, but no cigar, as my fifth grade teacher used to say.
I suppose we'll have to wait to see what we talk about on Tuesday to finish up Dune. Have a great weekend everyone.
But to be serious, I thought our discussion of who Paul really wanted to be, duke or Muad'Dib very interesting. I find myself agreeing with those who argue that Muad'Dib was something he stepped into for expediency and the Duke was something he was, or at least was born to be and thus is. Leto was a huge figure in Paul's life, as evidenced by their relationship and the shrine Paul erected for his father's skull. I think being the Duke helps Paul to honor his father. Of course, being the Duke also helps him connect to the Emperor and thus make himself non-writeoff-able. They have to deal with him on reasonable terms because he is the Duke, not just some tribal Prophet. In the old civilization-savage conflict, they have to deal with him on a civilized level.
I also liked our discussion on who the implied author and reader were. I still think it's someone outside of the "Arrakis Affair" that the implied reader is, which I think we all agreed on, but there is something to the idea that Dune is a compiled history of the issue, as Tim I think said, it is as if Irulan wrote all this stuff and someone just put it all together with her quotes to tie it together, adding the appendixes for some context. Or it's all silly to be even wondering and Herbert was just trying to be like Tolkien but didn't quite get there because he didn't invent, what was it, three new languages. Nice try, but no cigar, as my fifth grade teacher used to say.
I suppose we'll have to wait to see what we talk about on Tuesday to finish up Dune. Have a great weekend everyone.
Tuesday, February 12, 2008
Dune
Well, clearly I am extremely late in this post but as they say better late than never. OK, I'm going to be brief in this one. Dune is of course one of the standards in the Sci-Fi genre and thus there is no way I would be able to really do it justice so I'm just going to bring up a few of the more interesting things I found in it.
First, the fact that Frank Herbert was able to create this entire space of existence and not, as far as I could tell, make any continuity mistakes is absolutely amazing. This is of course in contrast to the best known of this type the certain SRAW RATS that shall remain nameless. With all of the different groups from the Fremen to the Atreides, Harkonnen, the Emporer, the Sardaukers, the Guild it is astonishing the degree to which he was able to write in a back story without actually stopping to have to spell out every groups history.
Next is the freaky religious aspects of the book. So we have the Bene Gesserit making up all of these religious stories as a mass cover-up for their "weirding ways" and yet the prophecies come true on Arrakis.
Finally I have to note the combination of an old western feel within the Sci-fi. You have the Fremen who use knives against the others with Lasguns, 'thopters, shields and all the other gadgets they have and yet the knives win in the end. That's quite simply awesome.
I know this is late and by no means comprehensive but then again the book really speaks for itself.
First, the fact that Frank Herbert was able to create this entire space of existence and not, as far as I could tell, make any continuity mistakes is absolutely amazing. This is of course in contrast to the best known of this type the certain SRAW RATS that shall remain nameless. With all of the different groups from the Fremen to the Atreides, Harkonnen, the Emporer, the Sardaukers, the Guild it is astonishing the degree to which he was able to write in a back story without actually stopping to have to spell out every groups history.
Next is the freaky religious aspects of the book. So we have the Bene Gesserit making up all of these religious stories as a mass cover-up for their "weirding ways" and yet the prophecies come true on Arrakis.
Finally I have to note the combination of an old western feel within the Sci-fi. You have the Fremen who use knives against the others with Lasguns, 'thopters, shields and all the other gadgets they have and yet the knives win in the end. That's quite simply awesome.
I know this is late and by no means comprehensive but then again the book really speaks for itself.
Dune: Pre-class Reaction
Among many things I want to discuss is the cultural aspect of this book, as usual. Obviously here we see a clash of ways of life as well as idea. And what stood out to me is how all the various powers just brushed of the “concept of Fremen”: to them it was just a few scattered, desert beaten people, with nothing to learn from. That is a trap many cultures in our world have fallen. The book shows how such narrow-minded-ness can lead to a lot of violence and misunderstandings. Obviously here the fact that the Fremen were overlooked for years was beneficial for them and allowed them to grow and do what they wanted almost unhindered. But not thinking about the plot, I can’t help but image how things would have been if the Duke (Leto) was quicker to learn from and befriend the Fremen.
Another concept that stood out to me is how the Fremen lived a life of great refrain and respect for their resources and environment. It’s a harsh existence, but they were smart enough to adapt to it and use it to their best advantage. Which makes me think of our current environment situation and how people take so much for granted and just waste and consume. On page 275 there is a part where they say that there comes a point where you can’t keep stealing from the plan without thinking what else is to follow. And that quality in the Fremen of thinking ahead and being smart about their environment and doing something for a far tomorrow is admirable. Concerning resources the book makes a point I have learned in my human geography class. And that is the concept of surplus and the relationship between control of the resources /means of production and power. We see this concept on Dune. Whoever controlled the surplus of Spice or even water had the power. In this case surplus means anything that people don’t need for their own survival and that can be sold as a commodity. And without surplus a society can’t develop, it needs the surplus to make money or other gains from trade, and later it can use that money to develop its society (Paul keeps talking about how once they gain control they will have money and then they will finally be able to do what is needed for the planet). This struggle for control over resources or land can be seen in a large number of cases, past and present on our world.
Finally, I want to comment on the OC Bible quote on page 40 (the one that Paul reads out loud to the doctor and turns out to be Wanna’s favorite). It is one of my favorite from the book and it is a concept I myself have thought about a few times. It is just mind blowing to me whenever I try to grasp the concept of all the “things” I may not be “seeing” (well experiencing in general) just because I don’t know how or don’t have the capacity to.
Another concept that stood out to me is how the Fremen lived a life of great refrain and respect for their resources and environment. It’s a harsh existence, but they were smart enough to adapt to it and use it to their best advantage. Which makes me think of our current environment situation and how people take so much for granted and just waste and consume. On page 275 there is a part where they say that there comes a point where you can’t keep stealing from the plan without thinking what else is to follow. And that quality in the Fremen of thinking ahead and being smart about their environment and doing something for a far tomorrow is admirable. Concerning resources the book makes a point I have learned in my human geography class. And that is the concept of surplus and the relationship between control of the resources /means of production and power. We see this concept on Dune. Whoever controlled the surplus of Spice or even water had the power. In this case surplus means anything that people don’t need for their own survival and that can be sold as a commodity. And without surplus a society can’t develop, it needs the surplus to make money or other gains from trade, and later it can use that money to develop its society (Paul keeps talking about how once they gain control they will have money and then they will finally be able to do what is needed for the planet). This struggle for control over resources or land can be seen in a large number of cases, past and present on our world.
Finally, I want to comment on the OC Bible quote on page 40 (the one that Paul reads out loud to the doctor and turns out to be Wanna’s favorite). It is one of my favorite from the book and it is a concept I myself have thought about a few times. It is just mind blowing to me whenever I try to grasp the concept of all the “things” I may not be “seeing” (well experiencing in general) just because I don’t know how or don’t have the capacity to.
Monday, February 11, 2008
Visions of the Future, Courtesy of Herbert
There's so much to talk about with Dune. The obvious parallels to our own world already mentioned by Professor Jackson, the differences between the Fremen and the rest of the population of the empire, the religion. But I'm not going to talk about that. Instead, I've found a few other things.
First off, the Bene Gesserit. I've always thought they were pretty cool. This group with it's claws in just about everything. Semi-mystic, so they took the cloak of religion when they went out into the empire, laying the groundwork on Arrakis that Paul took advantage of, though Jessica used it first. This groundwork was put in place for the sole purpose of exploiting the 'ignorant natives' in case a Bene Gesserit needed protection. Then you have the selective breeding program that Jessica was part of. Complex machinations just to produce the "Kwisatz Haderach" a super computer in human form with an inner eye focused on the future. The planning that went into this is astounding, as the appendix recounts Jessica's gene-markers had been cultivated for 2,000 years. And taboo for us, such close in-breeding, was just waved away by hiding Jessica's parentage. Jessica messed everything up for them though, by having Paul instead of a daughter to join to the Harkonnens and then produce the KH, Paul was just a generation early. Also, their human test is pretty interesting. I suppose they are simply testing the measure of the person by seeing how they stand up to pain, I'm sure there's an adage out there about that. There is about everything else.
Next, the aristocracy and social structure, the Great Houses and Emperor. More complex than England, and they beat out everyone else here on Earth. Then again, they've got planets to stretch across instead of just one island. In Dune, dukes are at the top of the food chain, besides the Emperor, of course, and his children as princesses and princes. Dukes, counts, barons, ladies, and princesses. Oh, noble hierarchy. Houses control planets until they are moved around. The Atreides family controlled Caladan before being moved to Arrakis, a supposed honor. Familial ties to other houses were often worth their weight in gold, or spice I suppose, and marriage played as much of a role in power plays as it has on Earth. Leto couldn't marry Jessica because he had to be kept free in case a deal required marriage with another house. Paul married Irulan for the link to the throne while Chani had to stay a concubine, though she won in the power game with Irulan, in this book at least. And any relation counts, even distaff ones, which I'm guessing are on a maternal rather than paternal line of relation. As the appendix describes, major houses get planets and interplanetary business while minor ones just get planetary business without possibility of branching out like the major houses can (520). Very interesting arrangements, though perhaps less complex in a single family than Heinlein.
Last, let's discuss spice. A drug that helps you see the future and navigate through the universe? Cool! Well, except for the blue eyes thing...could be kind of creepy. And the whole Navigator deal of turning into something other than human. Okay, fine, not so cool. But still interesting. The Guild formed the other piece of the square between the Emperor, Great Houses, and Bene Gesserit. It controlled space travel and transport, as well as the banks. Tick them off and you're stuck on your miserable planet, unable to go anywhere and probably broke too. The universe is dependent on them for travel and they are dependent on a substance found on one planet that is fraught with contention, a radically religious local population, and meddling by the houses. Fun. Oh, and there's these giant worms that make extracting the spice, from sand mind you, very difficult and dangerous. Double fun. You'd think they'd try to synthesize it or something. Or demand to control the planet themselves, the Guild that is. It just doesn't make much sense, putting all of their eggs in one basket like that. Again with the parallels to our own circumstances.
If anyone wants to borrow the movie version of Dune, I've got that too. And it's pretty close to the book, which is unusual. Well, "the spice must flow".
First off, the Bene Gesserit. I've always thought they were pretty cool. This group with it's claws in just about everything. Semi-mystic, so they took the cloak of religion when they went out into the empire, laying the groundwork on Arrakis that Paul took advantage of, though Jessica used it first. This groundwork was put in place for the sole purpose of exploiting the 'ignorant natives' in case a Bene Gesserit needed protection. Then you have the selective breeding program that Jessica was part of. Complex machinations just to produce the "Kwisatz Haderach" a super computer in human form with an inner eye focused on the future. The planning that went into this is astounding, as the appendix recounts Jessica's gene-markers had been cultivated for 2,000 years. And taboo for us, such close in-breeding, was just waved away by hiding Jessica's parentage. Jessica messed everything up for them though, by having Paul instead of a daughter to join to the Harkonnens and then produce the KH, Paul was just a generation early. Also, their human test is pretty interesting. I suppose they are simply testing the measure of the person by seeing how they stand up to pain, I'm sure there's an adage out there about that. There is about everything else.
Next, the aristocracy and social structure, the Great Houses and Emperor. More complex than England, and they beat out everyone else here on Earth. Then again, they've got planets to stretch across instead of just one island. In Dune, dukes are at the top of the food chain, besides the Emperor, of course, and his children as princesses and princes. Dukes, counts, barons, ladies, and princesses. Oh, noble hierarchy. Houses control planets until they are moved around. The Atreides family controlled Caladan before being moved to Arrakis, a supposed honor. Familial ties to other houses were often worth their weight in gold, or spice I suppose, and marriage played as much of a role in power plays as it has on Earth. Leto couldn't marry Jessica because he had to be kept free in case a deal required marriage with another house. Paul married Irulan for the link to the throne while Chani had to stay a concubine, though she won in the power game with Irulan, in this book at least. And any relation counts, even distaff ones, which I'm guessing are on a maternal rather than paternal line of relation. As the appendix describes, major houses get planets and interplanetary business while minor ones just get planetary business without possibility of branching out like the major houses can (520). Very interesting arrangements, though perhaps less complex in a single family than Heinlein.
Last, let's discuss spice. A drug that helps you see the future and navigate through the universe? Cool! Well, except for the blue eyes thing...could be kind of creepy. And the whole Navigator deal of turning into something other than human. Okay, fine, not so cool. But still interesting. The Guild formed the other piece of the square between the Emperor, Great Houses, and Bene Gesserit. It controlled space travel and transport, as well as the banks. Tick them off and you're stuck on your miserable planet, unable to go anywhere and probably broke too. The universe is dependent on them for travel and they are dependent on a substance found on one planet that is fraught with contention, a radically religious local population, and meddling by the houses. Fun. Oh, and there's these giant worms that make extracting the spice, from sand mind you, very difficult and dangerous. Double fun. You'd think they'd try to synthesize it or something. Or demand to control the planet themselves, the Guild that is. It just doesn't make much sense, putting all of their eggs in one basket like that. Again with the parallels to our own circumstances.
If anyone wants to borrow the movie version of Dune, I've got that too. And it's pretty close to the book, which is unusual. Well, "the spice must flow".
Sunday, February 10, 2008
Dune: Thank the Maker
Having finished rereading the book, I noticed many things this time that I had not noticed before. First and foremost, I was struck by the ending. The whole book is an exploration of this messianic figure, and yet the last 7 pages bring peace and new balance to the galaxy, and are ended by the words of Jessica to Chiani: "...we who carry the name of concubine - history will call us wives."
This is a very interesting choice to end the book with (even though one must read the appendices to truly get the full picture of the events as portrayed), given the various possible meanings throughout. I wanted to discuss my take on a few of these strands of meaning, and see if this might shed some light on this ending.
A theme that becomes more clear as the book progresses is the sheer discipline of the Fremen, in many regards. They always hold true to their rules regarding water, with many underlying motives. First off is the sheer value of preserving water on a desert planet. But, while they will almost always lend water to a member of their tribe in order to survive a journey, they require that the water be paid back 10-1 upon returning home. This strikes me as an odd rule, but one of extreme fairness whats worth some now is worth infinitely more in the future. This sense of justice is generalized with their hoarding of water for the terraforming of their planet - they always put the goals of the future ahead of their present needs, once again exploring this theme of placing the value of the future ahead of the lesser needs of now. This is part of the genius of Herbert's work - how seamlessly he blends fiction with history and religion. And, going back to my first question, this seems to fit what Jessica says: the current state of being a concubine will be seen so much differently in the future.
The other theme that I was interested by was interesting issue of who is really the force of good in this book. Duke Leto seemed like a fairly moral character, but he had his clear flaws (my memory is drawn to the awkward toast he performs at dinner on Arrakis). Jessica is never the most moral of characters, always being drawn between her B.G. loyalties, her love for the Duke, and her own, inexplicable motivations. Many of the Duke's men seem to be fairly good, but they each have their flaws as well. The Harkonnens don't quite have any possibility of being seen as good. That leaves Count Fenring, and Paul. The Count is the errand boy of the Emperor, and as such performs less than moral deeds. On the other hand, his hand is stayed at the end of the book upon realizing he has found a kindred spirit in Paul - this bears further discussion. And then Paul, which could be the subject of many posts. He seems to be one of the good forces throughout the book, but how good is he, in reality? His actions as Muad'dib are not the usual actions of a good character (taking the skins of one's enemies for his drums comes to mind). This also might shed some light on the end: with morality being a bunch of progressively darker shades of gray, Jessica can make such a statement and have it conclude the story as presented? I am not sure - I am curious what others think.
-Mike
This is a very interesting choice to end the book with (even though one must read the appendices to truly get the full picture of the events as portrayed), given the various possible meanings throughout. I wanted to discuss my take on a few of these strands of meaning, and see if this might shed some light on this ending.
A theme that becomes more clear as the book progresses is the sheer discipline of the Fremen, in many regards. They always hold true to their rules regarding water, with many underlying motives. First off is the sheer value of preserving water on a desert planet. But, while they will almost always lend water to a member of their tribe in order to survive a journey, they require that the water be paid back 10-1 upon returning home. This strikes me as an odd rule, but one of extreme fairness whats worth some now is worth infinitely more in the future. This sense of justice is generalized with their hoarding of water for the terraforming of their planet - they always put the goals of the future ahead of their present needs, once again exploring this theme of placing the value of the future ahead of the lesser needs of now. This is part of the genius of Herbert's work - how seamlessly he blends fiction with history and religion. And, going back to my first question, this seems to fit what Jessica says: the current state of being a concubine will be seen so much differently in the future.
The other theme that I was interested by was interesting issue of who is really the force of good in this book. Duke Leto seemed like a fairly moral character, but he had his clear flaws (my memory is drawn to the awkward toast he performs at dinner on Arrakis). Jessica is never the most moral of characters, always being drawn between her B.G. loyalties, her love for the Duke, and her own, inexplicable motivations. Many of the Duke's men seem to be fairly good, but they each have their flaws as well. The Harkonnens don't quite have any possibility of being seen as good. That leaves Count Fenring, and Paul. The Count is the errand boy of the Emperor, and as such performs less than moral deeds. On the other hand, his hand is stayed at the end of the book upon realizing he has found a kindred spirit in Paul - this bears further discussion. And then Paul, which could be the subject of many posts. He seems to be one of the good forces throughout the book, but how good is he, in reality? His actions as Muad'dib are not the usual actions of a good character (taking the skins of one's enemies for his drums comes to mind). This also might shed some light on the end: with morality being a bunch of progressively darker shades of gray, Jessica can make such a statement and have it conclude the story as presented? I am not sure - I am curious what others think.
-Mike
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